Curse

Laylat · Jun 02, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoomFrost

121212121212121212... etc? oh wait I forgots three..

Tip: If your middle and index fingers start to get tired, switch to your baby and ring fingers.

Also lol.

That is pretty sweet. But... [Mirror of Disenchantment] will own it, making it useless in margonite and destroyer areas. General enchantment stripping will make it difficult to rebond. You'll have to be really good at knowing who to bond again, etc...

Sorry, I just stopped reading the thread when I got to your post--which is why I quoted yours.

Just because one can maintain a X amount of bonds in a party does not mean ether renewal is the new 'leet, god-like, [insert word here]' spell. I've seen some very good monks bonders in the past and some very horrible ones. A bonder, no matter what the profession needs to be skilled at his/her job.

However, bonding, in my opinion is not a very good way to monk, but it can be fun when you play with guildies.

As far as Ele's being the new monks... why should that happen? Infinite energy does not make one a good monk. It helps, and gives more leeway, but by no means makes a person a better monk.

Infinite energy for offensive puposes? Sure, that could be a lot of fun. But non elite skills such as the attunements coupled with [Glyph of Lesser Energy] can keep your energy up for quite a long time.

My conclusion: I don't think the buff has made Ether Renewal as powerful as people think. If anything, ANet has given us the chance to experiment and have fun with a spell. And there's nothing wrong with having fun. It's just that people don't see that in this game, and I'm assuming in the majority of games.

Lol, the other day, I was helping a couple guys who helped me get my Guardian Title with the mission Gate of Madness on Hard Mode. I was playing a boon hybrid build. The warrior was running a W/N Dragonslash build with Rigor Mortis and Plague Touch. The ranger, which suprised me the most was running a Ranger Touch Build with SS! The rest were heroes. Now, before we started, I was aware of all the builds and was very curious as to how this will go. Zero deaths until Shiro. The ranger died a couple of times when Impossible Odds went off and the warrior died once. After that, capping the shrines was no problem.

I didn't mean this to be a lecture, or to tell you how to play. But please, try and have fun with your fellow GW players. Try new things. You never know, you can have a lot of fun. If the build doesn't work, then tweak it. It's not hard.

Cheers.

Edit: Spelling

upier · Jun 02, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It's an absolutely retarded and closeminded argument, because 95% of the time the argument against overpowered skills stems from an analysis of the consequences on overall game design and balance, not from the perspective of the player.

Whether I use Ursan or not doesn't change the fact it shows a violation of the original game design. Whether I use SY and ER or not doesn't change the fact they remove challenge and depth from the game.

Whether you use them or not doesn't matter to me, what matters is that someone in ANet who has the power to create the game thought these were a good idea, and that doesn't give me confidence in the future - because these kind of gimmicks are not maintainable development, and just tell me that ANet will degrade what they make to squeeze some money out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

You think that if I won't use it, it won't be overpowered? No, it still is overpowered. You're just not using it. The idiotic "dun like dun use it lawl" might've been used to defend bugged Signet of Ghostly Might.
Avarre, you forgot that ursan lets you ignore most conditions and hexes

Wouldn't you think that if a skill like Ursan can pass though the watchful eye of the balance team (/rolleyes) that the argument:
"against overpowered skills stems from an analysis of the consequences on overall game design and balance"
does NOT apply in PvE?

And even if it should apply a state of the game would need to be defined. Because on that state one would then base the balance process.
And with all the moronic ideas they have implemented into PvE - even IF they actually could define the state of the game - the state of the game would have so many exceptions that it simply would NOT be usable.
I mean look at something as easy as a knock-down.
In PvP the definition is - target foe is knocked down.
In PvE - the definition is something like - target foe is knocked down UNLESS the target is:

* All Giants EXCEPT Awakened Gray Giants.
* All Dolyak-riding Stone Summit units:
o Dolyak Master
o Dolyak Rider
o Stone Summit Heretic
* All beast-riding Stone Summit units:
o Summit Beastmaster
o Stone Summit Herder
* The large- and medium-sized Titans:
o Burning Titan
o Frost Titan
o Risen Ashen Hulk
o Rotting Titan
o Wild Growth
* Some Trees.
* All Wurms.
* Dragon Liches.
* Glint the dragon.
* All Hydras
* Siege Ice Golems
* Stone Crushers
* Zhu Hanuku
* Shiro Tagachi
* Sandstorm Crag
* Shambling Mesa
* Abaddon
* Berserking Bison
* All Jotun
(source: wiki)

IMO there is simply nothing in PvE that would signal that balance is an factor when PvE is being modified.
And it's because of that - that the usage of the word "overpowered" is simply wrong in a serious discussion. Because overpowered would mean that something is not balanced - and we can't even define what balanced is in PvE.

IF balance is an objective term.

And then there is the possibility that balance is a subjective term.
Balance is whatever A.Net says it is.
And at any given time - the game is balanced. Otherwise it would be changed.
So Ursan and ER are balanced. Because A.Net says they are.

So which is it?
Objective balance which I simply don't see being achieved, which also means that nothing can ever be overpowered or subjective balance - where the only thing that matter is that we aren't A.Net. And because of that - our views on what we feel is overpowered don't matter.

dont feel no pain · Jun 02, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

(for veterns only) How about we make some smites teams at HOH again? Odd that they would change this back after all this time

I loved E/MO halls with Balthazars Aura LOL. The way people screamed (keep away from the wooriiorsz!!!, they got AOE!!!)

DarkNecrid · Jun 02, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

uh...it's PvE only?

Sab · Jun 02, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Wouldn't you think that if a skill like Ursan can pass though the watchful eye of the balance team (/rolleyes) that the argument:
"against overpowered skills stems from an analysis of the consequences on overall game design and balance"
does NOT apply in PvE?

And even if it should apply a state of the game would need to be defined. Because on that state one would then base the balance process.
And with all the moronic ideas they have implemented into PvE - even IF they actually could define the state of the game - the state of the game would have so many exceptions that it simply would NOT be usable.
I mean look at something as easy as a knock-down.
In PvP the definition is - target foe is knocked down.
In PvE - the definition is something like - target foe is knocked down UNLESS the target is:

(snip)

IMO there is simply nothing in PvE that would signal that balance is an factor when PvE is being modified.
And it's because of that - that the usage of the word "overpowered" is simply wrong in a serious discussion. Because overpowered would mean that something is not balanced - and we can't even define what balanced is in PvE.

IF balance is an objective term.

And then there is the possibility that balance is a subjective term.
Balance is whatever A.Net says it is.
And at any given time - the game is balanced. Otherwise it would be changed.
So Ursan and ER are balanced. Because A.Net says they are.

So which is it?
Objective balance which I simply don't see being achieved, which also means that nothing can ever be overpowered or subjective balance - where the only thing that matter is that we aren't A.Net. And because of that - our views on what we feel is overpowered don't matter.

Balance exists in PvE, there's just a lot more tolerance for imbalanced skills. This largely stems from bad design (buffed mob stats, exploitable AI), but also from PvErs' general indifference when it comes to balance discussions ("don't like it, don't use it").

SY and Ursan are objectively overpowered because they outclass all alternatives for the majority of the game. That is, if you're looking to complete a difficult area as effectively as possible, you'd build around either of these two skills. This makes for a stale game, as you'd essentially gimp yourself by running anything else.

A secondary reason is that they make certain parts of playing the game obsolete. Ursanway doesn't require any utility outside of the AoE KD/weakness - the Monks merely have to push bars up. SY, while often needing a team to assist in pumping it out on recharge, the party-wide effect of the skill means you can ditch more "interesting" modes of defense, like targeted Prot or defensive shutdown, as most damage taken by the party is reduced into easily manageable amounts.

A tertiary reason is that these two skills reward too much for mashing buttons on recharge. However, looking at ANet's track record, I don't think this is a concern of theirs anymore, assuming it ever was.

In an ideal balanced PvE, there should be variety, and build that kill variety should be toned down. The two main candidates are again, Ursan, which dominates PUGs for the most part, and SY, for basically anything else. While the list of overpowered skills doesn't end with Ursan/SY, they're on the top of the list, and any sensible balance update has to start by dealing with these.

Balance is a huge grey area in PvE, but you cannot simply pull the subjective card and dismiss it entirely. Nor is saying ANet is the master of all balance any more convincing. ANet can choose whether or not balance is enforced, that's it. Stale builds remain stale, and nothing ANet says is going to change the fact that there is a very small variety of builds that see play in the majority of players.

ogre_jd · Jun 02, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The game isn't balanced on that specific skill.
You have your own instance.
The game isn't competitive.

Actually, the game is competitive - but in those areas that the actual competition takes place, [[Ursan Blessing] and all other PvE skills cannot be used, and the seemingly overpowered ones like [[Ether Renewal] & [[Shadow Form] (which take specific builds to get their overpowered use out of, builds which tend to leave very little room for error) have lesser stats there as well.

Therefore, I'll join the crowd of "If you don't like them, don't use them. They do not affect you in any way beyond maybe having a bit of trouble finding a PUG in a very few areas and when monsters use them against you."

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It's an absolutely retarded and closeminded argument, because 95% of the time the argument against overpowered skills stems from an analysis of the consequences on overall game design and balance, not from the perspective of the player.

Whether I use Ursan or not doesn't change the fact it shows a violation of the original game design. Whether I use SY and ER or not doesn't change the fact they remove challenge and depth from the game.

Whether you use them or not doesn't matter to me, what matters is that someone in ANet who has the power to create the game thought these were a good idea, and that doesn't give me confidence in the future - because these kind of gimmicks are not maintainable development, and just tell me that ANet will degrade what they make to squeeze some money out of it.

You are restoring my faith in humanity.

To others:

Short and simple: If X causes problem, ignoring it does not help. Problem is still there.

If you want people to shut up ("don't use ..." argument is basically that - nicely said GFTO & Shut Up) you have to convince them that there is no problem or that what seems to be problem is not really one.

Rhaegor Stormborn · Jun 02, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Whether you use them or not doesn't matter to me, what matters is that someone in ANet who has the power to create the game thought these were a good idea, and that doesn't give me confidence in the future - because these kind of gimmicks are not maintainable development, and just tell me that ANet will degrade what they make to squeeze some money out of it.

/signed

123456789101112

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Infinite energy for heals/prots? Get better instead.

If Ether Renewal healing is simply excessive, then it frees you up to bring less healing/defense in your team build. Monks taking more skill to play does not necessarily make them the optimal choice; nor does them being "good enough" for a strong team.

Jebus · Jun 02, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

(for veterns only) How about we make some smites teams at HOH again? Odd that they would change this back after all this time

I loved E/MO halls with Balthazars Aura LOL. The way people screamed (keep away from the wooriiorsz!!!, they got AOE!!!)

This....is... PVE!!!!

Shyft the Pyro · Jun 02, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Guild Wars is dead. Ursan has killed it.

See, ANet wants to make the game seem hard, without it actually being hard, which would scare away all the lazy/busy/casual people. Izzy's got them pegged as the people who want to "feel epic," and there's no better way to "feel epic" in an MMO than to thoroughly pwn something, regardless of whether it is the AI or another player, and get some feeling of accomplishment out of it.

The second part - "accomplishment" - is why we now have title tracks; the first part - "pwnage" - is why we have PvE skills.

On the surface, everyone wants a challenge, which is precisely why there's always such a demand for "high-end PvE." To cater to its customers, ANet has to introduce progressively harder PvE areas, so that existing users (who already know how the game works and have certain builds they can rely on) still feel the need to purchase the newest product. But people don't just want a challenge; they want to "pwn" said challenge as quickly and efficiently as possible. To cater to its customers, ANet has steadily increased the power of "regular" skills across the board, resulting in the "power creep" that has caused many people frustration in PvP.

(To see what I mean, compare the lone Fire Magic Elementalist elite from Prophecies, [skill]Mind Burn[/skill], with its Nightfall brethren: [skill]Mind Blast[/skill], [skill]Savannah Heat[/skill], [skill]Searing Flames[/skill].)

The problem with the power creep in PvP is easy enough to fix: nerf it for "balance." Sure, by nerfing something after it's been released you're effectively admitting you messed up in releasing the content in the first place, but at least you'll get all the lazy/busy/casual people - the ones who don't want the metagame to stabilize on its own, and would rather see a popular/functioning build nerfed - to agree with the "balance" assessment. Sure, there's a possibility that you might piss off some customers if you nerf what they're using into oblivion (see: Paragon), but those are the people playing the meta rather than complaining about it. They're either inventive enough to find new "broken" things to pwn with, or uninventive enough to be incapacitated by nerd rage until a new "broken" build shows up (see: PvXwiki build user).

PvE is where it gets trickier. There's no way to nerf the environment for "balance." Anything that makes the monsters weaker will be taken as an admission of guilt unless the change can be conclusively shown to fix an unintended consequence of skill interaction or area design. The only variable left is the power of the player, which, while cranked up due to the power creep, is still limited by PvP "balance" changes due to the brilliant design decision on ANet's part.

Given this, is it any wonder that ANet would introduce PvE-only skills? PvE skills are supposed to be overpowered by design, because their function is to speed up progress through harder PvE areas without influencing the "balance" in PvP. Sure, they go against the initial brilliant design decision of combining two games into one, but - most importantly, from the business standpoint - PvE skills free up dev time, which is ANet's chief concern at the moment.

Right now, Guild Wars is a financially dead game. With no more chapters or expansions planned, there is absolutely no financial reason to develop more PvE content, or even attempt to "balance" existing PvE content. A "nice" game company - which is how ANet initially marketed itself - would do this just to be "nice" to the customer base, in the hope that the customer base remembers how nice ANet was when Guild Wars 2 comes out. A "good" (or "financially successful," if you prefer) game company - which is what ANet is trying to be now, what with all the GW2 changes aimed at breaking into the "general" MMO market - will not waste its resources on a "doomed" product. What we're seeing right now is ANet's attempt to back away from just such a product - which, sadly, Guild Wars has become - and focus its manpower on Guild Wars 2, which, due to the business model ANet has elected to follow, needs to succeed if ANet wishes to continue its operations.

But what does this mean for us, who are still stuck in Guild Wars *1*?

Don't expect "balance" changes. In PvE, you'll get skill tweaks to make things easier so that people can fill their Hall of Monuments and have an incentive to buy GW2. In PvP, you'll get skill tweaks to "shake things up," but these will more likely than not be done at a whim, just so that "underused" skills see play. Since its impact on the Hall of Monuments is much smaller by comparison, there's technically absolutely no reason to tweak anything about PvP, but any change, no matter how minuscule, will keep people interested, and by extension keep them playing and grinding towards a full HoM and a GW2 purchase, which is what ANet wants.

Call me a pessimist and a cynic, if you must, but do not call me a liar, because everything I've said is true.

Guild Wars is dead. Long live Guild Wars 2.

The only thing worse than living in a dead world is living in a dying one.

Abedeus · Jun 02, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

. Long live Guild Wars 2.

Long live Fury. Oh, wait.

But /agree on everything else.

Prophecies = hard pve, challenging, FUN.
Factions = super hard pve, a bit too challenging, still fun (but a bit more frustrating)
Nightfall = beginning of easy pve, heroes, imba skills (Sandstorm, Searing Flames, Zealous Benediction, LoD, stoneflesh aura), not that big challenge.
between Nightfall and EotN there was DoA = super hard, frustrating, too challeging and not fun (until it was nerfed - then SOME people completed it...)
Eye of the North = mega easy pve (20 level content my ass), imbalanced pve-only skills, fun for grinders, no fun for people looking for challenge. They find nothing, actually.

phan · Jun 02, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

What we need is : removal of ursan . the thing of "if you don't like it , don't use it " is rubbish because its frustrating to know your better and you accualy work harder for a game to only get less rewarded than the ursan scrubs .

The PvE / PvP split is as bad as hell . If one person [ aka assasin ] can solo one of the hardest dungeons [ aka ragars menagrie ] its to imbalanced .

If Anet really cared about it's game it would remove ursan .

Its hard to still have some fun with this game ; and becides its summer .. computer time is over & welcome nice weather time ..

Stolen Souls · Jun 02, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I just fail completely to understand the reasoning, for buffing Ether Renewal back into an uberskill. I mean...WHY Ether Renewal, of all things? Eles needed a buff? o.o

I often wonder if Anet is just messing with us now, to see the community reaction to it. >_>

Nightow · Jun 02, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Long live Fury. Oh, wait.

But /agree on everything else.

Prophecies = hard pve, challenging, FUN.
Factions = super hard pve, a bit too challenging, still fun (but a bit more frustrating)
Nightfall = beginning of easy pve, heroes, imba skills (Sandstorm, Searing Flames, Zealous Benediction, LoD, stoneflesh aura), not that big challenge.
between Nightfall and EotN there was DoA = super hard, frustrating, too challeging and not fun (until it was nerfed - then SOME people completed it...)
Eye of the North = mega easy pve (20 level content my ass), imbalanced pve-only skills, fun for grinders, no fun for people looking for challenge. They find nothing, actually.

By Jones, I think we've got it!

If I recall correctly, weren't there some video gaming critics who bashed Anet for making RoT/DoA super hard and not fun? Anyways, why make an area if not everyone could enjoy it? It's like dangling a piece of cheese (loot) in front of a mouse (playerbase) just to taunt them.

Martin Firestorm · Jun 02, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

The unhappiest bunch of fans of anything I've ever seen.

Shyft the Pyro · Jun 02, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

I just fail completely to understand the reasoning, for buffing Ether Renewal back into an uberskill. I mean...WHY Ether Renewal, of all things? I often wonder if Anet is just messing with us now, to see the community reaction to it. >_>

I love Ether Renewal. It was my first elite, and I had great fun with it, both in PvE (where I used it to walk the jungle, alone, without henchies) and in PvP (RA people who didn't understand why I wouldn't die were funny

). That was in 2005, before the nerf. I was sad to see ER go, but - having used it - I understood how powerful it was, and that it needed to go away for the good of the game.

On one hand, I'm happy to have my first elite back. I've player an Ether Prodigy monk for too long (and too well

) to pass up this gift from ANet. I'm looking forward to Life Bonding my party, whether H/H or PC, in NM or HM, and keeping them alive to let us roll the area with greater ease. ANet has given me yet another way to prove that an Elementalist can do anything, and I'll be damned if I pass this up

On the other hand, I can't help but be saddened by the fact that ANet has gone back on its decisions once again. This isn't just "hats are only available for the duration of the festival," this is something embedded in the very core of Guild Wars. PvE skills annoy me enough on their own ("Why do the monsters need environmental effects, and why do I need special skills to effectively nullify those effects? Couldn't we just get rid of both?"), but breaking a previously existing spell in two is, to me, like breaking Guild Wars in two. I believe the marriage of PvE and PvP is what made Guild Wars as huge a success as it was, and splitting the two up is a mistake on ANet's part brought on by the people who whine without understanding that PvE and PvP are together by design.

I'd say it's another sign of Guild Wars dying, but I'm just a cynic and a pessimist. Right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin firestorm

The unhappiest bunch of fans of anything I've ever seen.

Check out some history books for the Roman Catholic Church, and what its "unhappy fans" did (and what the Church did to the "fans") when the "fans" didn't think what the Church was doing was right

Bryant Again · Jun 02, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

GUIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLD WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRZZZZZZZZZZ

Dear Avarre,

Please, for the love of Jebus, let me sig the hell out of this.

Yours truly,

-Bryant Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

If I recall correctly, weren't there some video gaming critics who bashed Anet for making RoT/DoA super hard and not fun?

The problem was more a huge spike in difficulty. Here you are, in the Desolation, using holywtfimba Junundu Wurms - than all of a sudden you have to start hitting things yourself (plus the desert wasn't too hard in itself to begin with). It wasn't particularly difficult, per se, but that the areas leading up to it did little to prepare you for what to expect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Anyways, why make an area if not everyone could enjoy it? It's like dangling a piece of cheese (loot) in front of a mouse (playerbase) just to taunt them.

I don't mind making content more accessible for everyone. I do mind, however, providing a higher level of difficulty (HM) and then providing tools to make the higher level of difficulty feel like the easier setting. An example would be playing Doom on Nightmare and then having the game provide you with 200% regenerating health and shooting twice as fast. Or putting Diablo on the highest difficultly setting, and then being given double the health, double the armor, and dealing double the damage.

Regarding "gimping yourself": I don't mind doing that for a challenge. The only problem is that after I'm done "gimping myself" is that I'd want to look forward to a level of difficulty that now challenges my newly acquired skill. Why "gimp yourself" to become better when you can already complete all of the game's challenges? That's why I was so bummed about Halo 3 on Legendary: Frankly, it was easy as shit, and felt like Normal mode Halo 2.

kostolomac · Jun 02, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I can live with powerful skills , but eles don't really need that , maybe some other classes. I would love to see A-net change the skills the monsters use in elite areas like FoW and DoA. I mean , have the skills that the monsters there use changed? If you want a balanced game , change the "builds"(if we can call them that) the monsters use , right now their only advantage is more hp and attribute levels. I love pve because the monsters use skills just like us , only they don't change them.
If A-net removes ursan because it's "too powerful" , i demand that they remove each and every farming build , since most of them require little to no skill and take as much time to learn to play as ursan.

Abedeus · Jun 02, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

since most of them require little to no skill and take as much time to learn to play as ursan.

Actually, they require skill knowledge and nice reflex. Spirit bonding (not the old-school one) requires some skill in Hard Mode when farming DoA. Same could be said about W/Me - screw up running/pulling and you are screwed.

And those that didn't require skill are either dead (oldschool SoA 55 or mo/d undead farmer) or too imba (perma shadow form), but mostly dead.